Reformed Loser

I think you can read this straight through, but I've not made much effort for it to be coherent by itself. You'd probably best have a copy of The Manifesto to refer to.

1) I have a difficult time addressing this societal goal thing, because I'm not qualified. I think there are people, philosophers, who can address it, but not me. The only things I can come up with are too petty, e.g. we should colonize Mars, or too big and vague, e.g. health, wealth and happiness.

As far as liberty-as-goal is concerned, I don't think of it that way. I liken the Stated society to a man with cancer. He certainly wants to get rid of the tumor, but there's bigger and better things to do after.

How would the health/wealth/happiness be distributed in my ideal society? In the short term, much the same way they are now. People would voluntarily trade wealth for all sorts of things, and trade all sorts of things for wealth, according to their individual wants. Some will be wealthier, some happier, some neater, some sexier, some wiser, some more cultured, and so on. I reject the state because I believe that no iteration of it has ever achieved the sophistication of the free market or its alacrity at responding to the needs of the people.

I would not disband our government without the consent of the people. If the people don't believe they can govern themselves, they're right.

Finally, the reason a lazy, mentally average person like me can have confidence in my ideas is because it's a matter of ethics. I don't need a lot of training to know that stealing is wrong. Yes I'm equating taxation to theft here, and I know it's not sophisticated. Racketeering might be a better term. Pretend for a second that they're not your government, they're just a bunch of guys, which, in fact, is just what they are.

2) Yeah. Again, there's a place for this sort of thing (why are your goals the best goals) but I can't as yet contribute.

3) When I say, "basically, most people want what I want," I'm talking about health, wealth, and happiness. I don't think I'm being patronizing.

Kudos to you for the "not-imaginary" comment. That stings. However comma, I would like to say that my market system is not a radical rejection of the established order, it's been keeping us in food and clothing for a long, long time. The state's been with us too, but I feel like it's always two to five steps behind. Personally I feel like that statement is self-evident (any DMV office), and I won't go into (any more) specifics, but I'll do the next best thing. Instead of a bunch of whats, I'll give you a why. The state does not need to innovate, they don't need to provide good customer service. Why should they? They're going to get your money either way.

So, why do we go on instituting governments? Fear and envy are the first things that come to my mind, but in truth I don't know. Currently my thinking is that liberty is coming slowly but surely. Hereditary monarchy used to be all the rage, but I don't think it was a good system. I do have the arrogance to believe that I'm onto something that the majority is not. I think I'm ahead of my time, but I'm not a pioneer, and I'm not alone.

Next: how can people be hoodwinked into becoming sheep and at the same time be good candidates for a free society? Good question. Two responses come to mind. First, the big tent answer. Freedom is a rigorous discipline. You learn fast when you're allowed to make mistakes. Second, if you want to choose to forfeit freedoms there will almost definitely be communities of like-minded people. Rules are great, I have nothing against rules.

(I think looting, slavery, theft, rape, and murder will probably always be with us. Currently, we elect legislators to enact laws and hire police to curb these abuses. It's reasonable to assume a market for these services absent the state.)

Regarding Hurricane Katrina, I can't help getting in the dig that it's far from a showcase of government competence. Now is it your point that government was necessary in that situation (I donated a hundred dollars to, I think the Red Cross, and I'm just a produce clerk, just to remind you that there is such a thing as charitable giving), or that the people turned into monsters? If your point is the first, you've got my answer in parentheses, if the second, my understanding is that one death only at the Convention Center and Superdome was determined to be a homicide and that most of these people chose to not get the hell out of town, even after this bulletin had been issued.

Next paragraph: we aren't ants. True. It's too late in the morning right now to try and relate to someone who thinks government can create sophisticated solutions. (I've read a little about The Tragedy of the Commons, it strikes me as an argument for private property. Don't be mad, I know that's pat and not the author's intent.)

I do think the modern democratic state is the most efficient and productive government tried to date.

I think men formed governments in the first place first to benefit themselves, the governors. As time has gone by and men have become stronger, governments have had to justify their existence more and more. And I do think of it as kind of an original sin.

4) I covered some of this before; I'll just add that I am superior to you in this way (my understanding of the optimal means of society), as well as many other ways, e.g. my humility.

Two types of liberty: "positive liberty" is tripe that socialists use to get on the freedom wagon. Wealth redistribution doesn't have anything to do with freedom.

My last sentence ("It's my opinion that private enterprise is a more productive and more responsible custodian of this money than the State") makes the case unpersuasive: it certainly does if you're a fan of the state. For me the statement applies in all circumstances. Try to remember that I approve of a lot of targets the government aims for. Property is something I haven't yet wrapped my mind around, but I'm not anxious about it for two reasons. One, there is a vast warehouse of untapped property in the world, there is as yet no scarcity of resources. (If you put the population of the world into 5 member families and moved them all to the United States, each family would have a little bit under 2 acres each.) Two, another leap of faith, I think the free market can come up with better solutions to thorny problems than the state, and in fact usually provides the model that states use for their own solutions.

5) Taxes, theft, and slavery: I'm forced to work a certain part of the year for the government. Keep in mind that government is not wizards or angels or any other special race. Why is this not slavery?

5a) I gave a very short treatment of property earlier. It merits more, but that'll have to wait until another time. You might try giving me more specific examples.

5b) It is kind of religious for me, and I'm rushing again.

Finally, liberty could be achieved with a slim majority and a lot of people unprepared, or incrementally, with the market out-competing the state case by case. The second way is probably more likely. This statement is made in response to the starvation, poverty and the rest statement.

Good morning,
J. Ray